Eurogenes K12b thread

[Ben Dover]

Considering mesopotamian jews and indian jews, its funny to think there are jews out there with afghan heritage(if they dont score almost like afghans? Even had a dna match with what could be an afghan jew, who scored almost like a regular afghan)

Maybe that afghan jew was mixed with ethnic afghans or he was just ethnically afghan who followed judaism? After all, anything that follows judaism is a jew so you get the point

 

[ImHere]

Maybe that afghan jew was mixed with ethnic afghans or he was just ethnically afghan who followed judaism? After all, anything that follows judaism is a jew so you get the point

I heard from somehwere that you just cant convert to judaism, and its more an "ethnicity" than religion. Even that afghan guy himself said it.


I mean, there are jews of Iran or India, "proper jews" who have local ancestry(but also jew ancestry, in case of indians, bukharan heritage), so im wondering if it isnt just the same for afghan jews? Apparently some jews been in AFG since 7th century.


Though i guess there's a possibility he's just some random afghan who converted to judaism?

 

[Ben Dover]

I heard from somehwere that you just cant convert to judaism, and its more an "ethnicity" than religion. Even that afghan guy himself said it.


I mean, there are jews of Iran or India, "proper jews" who have local ancestry(but also jew ancestry, in case of indians, bukharan heritage), so im wondering if it isnt just the same for afghan jews? Apparently some jews been in AFG since 7th century.


Though i guess there's a possibility he's just some random afghan who converted to judaism?

If you can't/ couldn't convert to judaism since antiquity, these self-identified jews wouldn't be this diverse and no. Judaism is a religion and not an ethnicity. I don't know much about Afghan Jews but many people who follow judaism and identify as jews because of that, don't know any better

 

[ImHere]

If you can't/ couldn't convert to judaism since antiquity, these self-identified jews wouldn't be this diverse and no. Judaism is a religion and not an ethnicity

Maybe these guys married into locals, but kept their ancestor's religion and identity? Such concept does exist for some ethnicities.

Im not sure what to think about jews, this is just what i heard: That you simply cant become a jew, but need to have some jewish ancestry.
But you might be right?

 

[Ben Dover]

Maybe these guys married into locals, but kept their ancestor's religion and identity? Such concept does exist for some ethnicities.

Im not sure what to think about jews, this is just what i heard: That you simply cant become a jew, but need to have some jewish ancestry.
But you might be right?

I think I am right. The separate ethnicities that identify as Jews, most of them have that SW Asian ancestry, some have a lot and some have very little of it, but to claim that just because of that small Samaritan like component that they all have makes them the same ethnicity is a huge stretch and plain stupid. After all, you can see the image of how things are pretty clearly

 

[Ben Dover]

Recently, I read that some of the studies done on "jews" used PCAs to conclude the ancestral compositions of several populations. For example, in the case of Ashkenazi Jews, they said that they were 1/2 Southern Levantine and 1/2 Euro. However, as PCAs suffer from some underlying effects this can manipulate the conclusions of what the DNA of the certain ethnicity(ies) actually consists of. Using more advanced tools can give us a more clear image. The example of Ashkenazi Jews were mentioned here:

Why most Principal Component Analyses (PCA) in population genetic studies are wrong

Principal Component Analysis (PCA) is a multivariate analysis that allows reduction of the complexity of datasets while preserving data covariance and visualizing the information on colorful scatterplots, ideally with only a minimal loss of information. PCA applications are extensively used as...

www.biorxiv.org

 

[ImHere]

I think I am right. The separate ethnicities that identify as Jews, most of them have that SW Asian ancestry, some have a lot and some have very little of it, but to claim that just because of that small Samaritan like component that they all have makes them the same ethnicity is a huge stretch and plain stupid. After all, you can see the image of how things are pretty clearly

To be fair, such concept does exist.

There are example like people in India who consider themselves "pashtuns", even though they arent more than 1% pashtun ancestrially. It would sound ridicolous to call them pashtuns, but since the "real ones" have their pashtun ancestry from a paternal ancestor, who passed the titel to future male descendant through generations, and each descendant considered himself "pashtun", then the 36th generation can still consider himself/herself pashtun, even if 99,9% indian, since we pashtuns have this tribal structure that father's heritage and identity matters the most. I think there are more examples out there IRL of different ethnicities, though i cant come up with any who would strongly identify themselves as those ethnicities, except descendants of jews and pashtuns?


I think its similiar case with jews?

 

[Ben Dover]

Regrdless, especially in the case of Mizrahi Jews and mesopotamian jews, in the antiquity, judaism was a popular religion in the region and a shit ton of conversion happened. The genetic profile if mesopotamian jews speak for itself as a result

 

[ImHere]

Recently, I read that some of the studies done on "jews" used PCAs to conclude the ancestral compositions of several populations. For example, in the case of Ashkenazi Jews, they said that they were 1/2 Southern Levantine and 1/2 Euro. However, as PCAs suffer from some underlying effects this can manipulate the conclusions of what the DNA of the certain ethnicity(ies) actually consists of. Using more advanced tools can give us a more clear image. The example of Ashkenazi Jews were mentioned here:

Why most Principal Component Analyses (PCA) in population genetic studies are wrong

Principal Component Analysis (PCA) is a multivariate analysis that allows reduction of the complexity of datasets while preserving data covariance and visualizing the information on colorful scatterplots, ideally with only a minimal loss of information. PCA applications are extensively used as...

www.biorxiv.org

regarding heritage in jews, there were someone on anthrogenica who talked about it(one of the things he said is that jews have more south european ancestry, but south italian, and less jewish ancestry, but "more northern shifted". He defended his claims with historial data):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?25013-Most-of-South-European-ancestry-in-Ashkenazi-Jews-doesn-t-seem-to-be-North-Italian

 

[ImHere]

Regrdless, especially in the case of Mizrahi Jews and mesopotamian jews, in the antiquity, judaism was a popular religion in the region and a shit ton of conversion happened. The genetic profile if mesopotamian jews speak for itself as a result

how did these conversions happen? Did they simply just call themselves jews, or.....?

 

[Ben Dover]

To be fair, such concept does exist.

There are example like people in India who consider themselves "pashtuns", even though they arent more than 1% pashtun ancestrially. It would sound ridicolous to call them pashtuns, but since the "real ones" have their pashtun ancestry from a paternal ancestor, who passed the titel to future male descendant through generations, and each descendant considered himself "pashtun", then the 36th generation can still consider himself/herself pashtun, even if 99,9% indian, since we pashtuns have this tribal structure that father's heritage and identity matters the most. I think there are more examples out there IRL of different ethnicities, though i cant come up with any who would strongly identify themselves as those ethnicities, except descendants of jews and pashtuns?


I think its similiar case with jews?

Yes, and I don't deny the actual samaritan like ancestry that these different judaism following populations have in different amounts. The thing is that, at this point it is just silly for these people to be considered under the same ethnic lable just because they follow the same religion and have differing amounts of a single source of ancestry when they are much more of other ancestries in total.

 

[Ben Dover]

how did these conversions happen? Did they simply just call themselves jews, or.....?

Anyone who converts to judaism is a jew under the law of judaism.

 

[ImHere]

Yes, and I don't deny the actual samaritan like ancestry that these different judaism following populations have in different amounts. The thing is that, at this point it is just silly for these people to be considered under the same ethnic lable just because they follow the same religion and have differing amounts of a single source of ancestry when they are much more of other ancestries in total.

" have differing amounts of a single source of ancestry when they are much more of other ancestries in total."

It might sound silly to you, but as i said, it matters depending on where such ancestry comes from in your family tree. Some tribal/ethnic social structures just are like that.
And they work specially when the descendant even considers himself/herself a jew.


But that youre mentioning people randomly could convert to Judaism thousands years ago, i guess that makes things sort of different

 

[ImHere]

BBC - Religions - Judaism: Converting to Judaism

This article is a look at the basics of converting to Judaism and what it means for the person who is converting.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well, i guess you just can convert to judaism

 

[Nassbean]

All I am saying is that 3-5 % is a lot. Especially for Mizrahis🙂 it would be interesting to see what k12b would show in this regards

actually 3-5% for mizrahis would make much more sense than for ashkenazi or sephardic jews just think about yemenites and their relations with east africa or the intense exchanges between Egypt and Judea.

 

[ImHere]

Berber from M'Chouneche, Algeria (SNP: 70K):

Western European	11.58 Pct​
Siberian	1.35 Pct​
East African	8.37 Pct​
West Central Asian	2.29 Pct​
South Asian	-​
West African	4.44 Pct​
Caucasus	15.88 Pct​
Finnish	2.02 Pct​
Mediterranean	32.75 Pct​
Southwest Asian	16.74 Pct​
North European	4.19 Pct​
East Asian	0.4 Pct​

Berber from likely Tunisia (SNP: 50K):

Western European	11.5 Pct​
Siberian	-​
East African	11.8 Pct​
West Central Asian	5.66 Pct​
South Asian	1.63 Pct​
West African	3.33 Pct​
Caucasus	11.29 Pct​
Finnish	-​
Mediterranean	33.87 Pct​
Southwest Asian	19.31 Pct​
North European	0.78 Pct​
East Asian	0.82 Pct​

 

[Nassbean]

Yes, and I don't deny the actual samaritan like ancestry that these different judaism following populations have in different amounts. The thing is that, at this point it is just silly for these people to be considered under the same ethnic lable just because they follow the same religion and have differing amounts of a single source of ancestry when they are much more of other ancestries in total.

I got temporary banned from anthrogenica for defending this

 

[ImHere]

I got temporary banned from anthrogenica for defending this

Defending Mesoman's argument, or the argument that you can consider yourself "XZ" despite the amount of admix/heritage from ethnicity "XZ"?

 

[Ben Dover]

actually 3-5% for mizrahis would make much more sense than for ashkenazi or sephardic jews just think about yemenites and their relations with east africa or the intense exchanges between Egypt and Judea.

By mizrahis I meant mesopotamian, iranian, caucasus and uzbek Jews.

 

[Nassbean]

Defending Mesoman's argument, or the argument that you can consider yourself "XZ" despite the amount of admix/heritage from ethnicity "XZ"?

The fact that jews are an heterogeneous community from a genetic standpoint and that there isn't any "pure" jewish people today except groups like samaritans or iraqi jews