Why do people think that Spaniards are Roman or Moorish descendants

[IberoTarasco]

So,.I have this friend who is mostly Italian & Ashkenazi Jew, & he claims that Mexicans are a mix of Romans & Native Americans, & is talking out of his ass about Spaniards, claiming they are dark & have Roman & Moorish ancestry.

My good friend who is in this forum was in Spain recently, & he said that Spaniards looked Celtic, like typical white people, they looked no different from the French.

Only a minority of Spaniards have some Roman DNA, mostly in Andalusia & Valencia, & the Moriscos (moorish descendants) were expelled from Spain & fled to the New World or North Africa, that's why Latinos have Moorish DNA, while Peninsular Spaniards don't, & the Moriscos are mostly European, & were mostly Native Iberians who converted to Islam.

My Italo-Jew friend probably has never been outside of the USA, & only goes by Hollywood stereotypes, like Antonio Banderas who tans a lot, but is naturally pale, or is confusing Mexican Mestizos or Puerto Rican Mulattoes for "Spanish", he should travel to Spain, & see for himself.

The point is that Spaniards are mostly Celtiberians of the Atlantid type, they are not as Mediterranean as they think, of course there are Med types in Spain, but they are not the majority.

@Ivorix @Hispania @BarcelonaAtlantis

 

[Turkic Warrior]

So,.I have this friend who is mostly Italian & Ashkenazi Jew, & he claims that Mexicans are a mix of Romans & Native Americans, & is talking out of his ass about Spaniards, claiming they are dark & have Roman & Moorish ancestry.

My good friend who is in this forum was in Spain recently, & he said that Spaniards looked Celtic, like typical white people, they looked no different from the French.

Only a minority of Spaniards have some Roman DNA, mostly in Andalusia & Valencia, & the Moriscos (moorish descendants) were expelled from Spain & fled to the New World or North Africa, that's why Latinos have Moorish DNA, while Peninsular Spaniards don't, & the Moriscos are mostly European, & were mostly Native Iberians who converted to Islam.

My Italo-Jew friend probably has never been outside of the USA, & only goes by Hollywood stereotypes, like Antonio Banderas who tans a lot, but is naturally pale, or is confusing Mexican Mestizos or Puerto Rican Mulattoes for "Spanish", he should travel to Spain, & see for himself.

The point is that Spaniards are mostly Celtiberians of the Atlantid type, they are not as Mediterranean as they think, of course there are Med types in Spain, but they are not the majority.

i think his gypsitalian dna make him talk shit about iberians

 

[Beowulf]

So,.I have this friend who is mostly Italian & Ashkenazi Jew, & he claims that Mexicans are a mix of Romans & Native Americans, & is talking out of his ass about Spaniards, claiming they are dark & have Roman & Moorish ancestry.

My good friend who is in this forum was in Spain recently, & he said that Spaniards looked Celtic, like typical white people, they looked no different from the French.

Only a minority of Spaniards have some Roman DNA, mostly in Andalusia & Valencia, & the Moriscos (moorish descendants) were expelled from Spain & fled to the New World or North Africa, that's why Latinos have Moorish DNA, while Peninsular Spaniards don't, & the Moriscos are mostly European, & were mostly Native Iberians who converted to Islam.

My Italo-Jew friend probably has never been outside of the USA, & only goes by Hollywood stereotypes, like Antonio Banderas who tans a lot, but is naturally pale, or is confusing Mexican Mestizos or Puerto Rican Mulattoes for "Spanish", he should travel to Spain, & see for himself.

The point is that Spaniards are mostly Celtiberians of the Atlantid type, they are not as Mediterranean as they think, of course there are Med types in Spain, but they are not the majority.

well is partly true what you say, with the user @Jingle Bell The Baiano in the apricity forum he did a thread to model modern iberians with iron age samples like Celts, iberians, East meds, NA, and germanic invasors(visigoth and suebi)

the only difference was in West and East (not a big difference) in west you can find more Celtic hallsttat like DNA and east Iberian more Iberian_BA like dna and probably a bit more germanic

in west also you can find the most NA like DNA (very porbably from neolithic) and in East some Levantine_BA like DNA and in average you can find beetween 5%-20% East/central Med DNA (very probably roman, the percentage are very random and depends on the person but majoritary modern Iberians are a mix of Celtiberian with minor admixtures like Roman like DNA or Germanic or NA

i would show some results but TA is still down if it's on again and if i remember i will post them here

 

[Jingle Bell The Baiano]

The roman part its correct, iberians today have much more East Med (Punic and Greco-Roman) ancestry than the Iron Age ones, just thr moorish part its fake, just 30.000 soldiers from NA comes in Iberia in a times which iberia were with 5.000.000 - 7.000.000 of persons, as Ivorix said mostly NA blood in peninsula is of Neolithic, Copper Age and Roman Period origin, the moor were just a cultural elite like the finns which were a elite in Finland but were a very tiny part of the country, thats why finns are no more than 5% Siberian bcs both moors and finns intermixed few with the native bcs they were a elite, unlike romans which created citys intermixed with natives during the occupation

 

[Beowulf]

The roman part its correct, iberians today have much more East Med (Punic and Greco-Roman) ancestry than the Iron Age ones, just thr moorish part its fake, just 30.000 soldiers from NA comes in Iberia in a times which iberia were with 5.000.000 - 7.000.000 of persons, as Ivorix said mostly NA blood in peninsula is of Neolithic, Copper Age and Roman Period origin, the moor were just a cultural elite like the finns which were a elite in Finland but were a very tiny part of the country, thats why finns are no more than 5% Siberian bcs both moors and finns intermixed few with the native bcs they were a elite, unlike romans which created citys intermixed with natives during the occupation

it's cool that we also are descendants of romans i always had a respect for roman empire:

 

[Nassbean]

he's right they have both roman and moorish ancestry and they are of course darker than central or north euros. Some of them even have SSA ancestry.

 

[Jingle Bell The Baiano]

he's right they have both roman and moorish ancestry and they are of course darker than central or north euros. Some of them even have SSA ancestry.

Moorish is very very tiny, Iberians are alr identical as they ancestors of Roman Era (Well before moors) and they are darker than Central and N. Euros bcs they have more EEF blood unlike Central and Northern euros which have more Corded and Bell Beaker blood
Also yes u are correct some can score a bit of SSA (The average is 0% but some few individuals can score 0.5% - 2%), but again thats is not from moors, we have samples from Roman Period and Goth period (3 - 6 CE) which can be modeled as 40%±7% North African with the rest East Med and Iberian IA like, prob from traders, Punics and NA slaves from Romans, i sugest to u read that article, NA ancestry of Iberia was stronger in CA than Moorish period:

The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years - PMC

We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high resolution time transect of the Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Beowulf]

Moorish is very very tiny, Iberians are alr identical as they ancestors of Roman Era (Well before moors) and they are darker than Central and N. Euros bcs they have more EEF blood unlike Central and Northern euros which have more Corded and Bell Beaker blood
Also yes u are correct some can score a bit of SSA (The average is 0% but some few individuals can score 0.5% - 2%), but again thats is not from moors, we have samples from Roman Period and Goth period (3 - 6 CE) which can be modeled as 40%±7% North African with the rest East Med and Iberian IA like, prob from traders, Punics and NA slaves from Romans, i sugest to u read that article, NA ancestry of Iberia was stronger in CA than Moorish period:

The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years - PMC

We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high resolution time transect of the Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

do u still have the spreadsheet in G25 of that calc for iberians? you can post it here, becuase now TA is down

 

[Nassbean]

Moorish is very very tiny, Iberians are alr identical as they ancestors of Roman Era (Well before moors) and they are darker than Central and N. Euros bcs they have more EEF blood unlike Central and Northern euros which have more Corded and Bell Beaker blood
Also yes u are correct some can score a bit of SSA (The average is 0% but some few individuals can score 0.5% - 2%), but again thats is not from moors, we have samples from Roman Period and Goth period (3 - 6 CE) which can be modeled as 40%±7% North African with the rest East Med and Iberian IA like, prob from traders, Punics and NA slaves from Romans, i sugest to u read that article, NA ancestry of Iberia was stronger in CA than Moorish period:

The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years - PMC

We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high resolution time transect of the Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You're not teaching me anything here I've already read that paper and I wouldn't call 8-13% "very very tiny" and yes some of the SSA was acquired independently from north africans.

 

[Jingle Bell The Baiano]

You're not teaching me anything here I've already read that paper and I wouldn't call 8-13% "very very tiny" and yes some of the SSA was acquired independently from north africans.

Again, the majority of this NA is from Copper Age & Roman Period, not Moorish

 

[Nassbean]

Again, the majority of this NA is from Copper Age & Roman Period, not Moorish

no it's mostly medieval as the paper you posted says :

Our genetic evidence of sporadic contacts with North Africa during the Copper Age fits with the presence of African ivory at Iberian sites (16) and is further supported by a Bronze Age individual (I7162) from Loma del Puerco in southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D and table S16). However, these early movements from North Africa had a limited impact on Copper and Bronze Age Iberians, as North African ancestry only became widespread in the past ~2000 years.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

 

[Jingle Bell The Baiano]

no it's mostly medieval as the paper you posted says :

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

"We reveal sporadic contacts between Iberia and North Africa by ~2500 BCE,"

"Beginning at least in the Roman period, we document how the ancestry of the Peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean"

"Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported 2473–2030 cal BCE male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras (14) in central Iberia, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3), and like ~3000 BCE Moroccans (8) can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans (15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9–10)."
NA's got their EEF genes on CA at the same times that Iberians get they first NA genes.

During Roman Era Iberia was heavily heterogenous with individuals scoring 0% - 45% NA, with the time in 8BC the average ws alr close to 10% in West, even before Moors we alr have samples from W and NW scoring 7% - 10% NA very close to actual average.

 

[Nassbean]

Majority of their NA wasn't from the copper age nor the roman period. These NA shifted roman era samples are from the south-east which is a region that saw new settlers from the north after the reconquista.

Here another paper which confirms it's mostly medieval :

We also detect a genetic footprint of the Muslim conquest, and subsequent centuries of Muslim rule. Following the arrival of an estimated 30,000 combatants33, a civilian migration of unknown numbers of people occurred, thought to be mainly Berbers from north Morocco and settling in many parts of the peninsula33. Our analysis confirms and refines previous findings11,20,26 of a substantial and regionally varying genetic impact, narrowing to a period spanning <?400 years.

Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula - Nature Communications

The Iberian Peninsula has a complex history. Here, the authors analyse the genetic structure of the modern Iberian population at fine scale, revealing historical population movements associated with the time of Muslim rule.

www.nature.com

 

[Marshall Ted]

Majority of their NA wasn't from the copper age nor the roman period. These NA shifted roman era samples are from the south-east which is a region that saw new settlers from the north after the reconquista.

Here another paper which confirms it's mostly medieval :

Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula - Nature Communications

The Iberian Peninsula has a complex history. Here, the authors analyse the genetic structure of the modern Iberian population at fine scale, revealing historical population movements associated with the time of Muslim rule.

www.nature.com

This paper it has been debated by various users, and the dating of this NA is controversial, i would not treat this paper as a dogma like you do.

Olalde et al paper says something different, more from the Roman period.

 

[Marshall Ted]

To OP: people are ignorant about a lot of subject, thus its normal to see them saying bullshit everytime.

 

[Jingle Bell The Baiano]

Majority of their NA wasn't from the copper age nor the roman period. These NA shifted roman era samples are from the south-east which is a region that saw new settlers from the north after the reconquista.

Here another paper which confirms it's mostly medieval :

Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula - Nature Communications

The Iberian Peninsula has a complex history. Here, the authors analyse the genetic structure of the modern Iberian population at fine scale, revealing historical population movements associated with the time of Muslim rule.

www.nature.com

Ty for the article, i will read soon
But still have samples from Roman Period North-Center Portugal (Area which was bot repopulated) alr cluster with modern iberians, also Chrstians of S. Iberia migrate to north also in that period, in a article i lr saw that 1/2 of ppl buried in Santiago Compostela was not native

 

[Beowulf]

Ty for the article, i will read soon
But still have samples from Roman Period North-Center Portugal (Area which was bot repopulated) alr cluster with modern iberians, also Chrstians of S. Iberia migrate to north also in that period, in a article i lr saw that 1/2 of ppl buried in SantiagoView attachment 6452 Compostela was not native

so these samples would be Lusitanians, right?

 

[Marshall Ted]

Ty for the article,

O Token já postou esse artigo no TA em 2018, houve uma longa discussão sobre esse artigo, principalmente na parte que determina o percentual e a origem.

Recomendo que você veja os posts do Sebastianus Rex sobre esse artigo no TA, assim que o fórum voltar ao ar.

 

[Nassbean]

Ty for the article, i will read soon
But still have samples from Roman Period North-Center Portugal (Area which was bot repopulated) alr cluster with modern iberians, also Chrstians of S. Iberia migrate to north also in that period, in a article i lr saw that 1/2 of ppl buried in SantiagoCompostela was not native

These are outliers and they had far more NA ancestry than the average modern iberian. I'm not saying there was no contribution before the moorish conquest but still medieval north africans also contributed.

 

[Jingle Bell The Baiano]

O Token já postou esse artigo no TA em 2018, houve uma longa discussão sobre esse artigo, principalmente na parte que determina o percentual e a origem.

Recomendo que você veja os posts do Sebastianus Rex sobre esse artigo no TA, assim que o fórum voltar ao ar.

These are outliers and they had far more NA ancestry than the average modern iberian. I'm not saying there was no contribution before the moorish conquest but still medieval north africans also contributed.

Eu planejava ler algumas threads no TA sobre alguns artigos passados, li uma thread inteira sobre um artigo sobre Roma e Italia BA mas quando ia ler aos outros o forum caiu, quando voltar espero os ler, obrigado pela sugestão

Ik thats a contribuiton of Moorish period, i exagerated saying very little, but i mean that Moors were not the only way of NA blood in Iberia and possibly not even the with bigger impact, but anyway was a good discussion and ty for begin polite, i will read both the article and thread in TA